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  #1  
Old Jul 24th, 2007, 08:49 AM
css_jay99 css_jay99 is offline
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Default Cant connect to NAS drive

Hi all, I have some queries

1) - MY NAS ENCLOSURE (safecom NSUR-10100) is hooked to my Router

before diving into my query, I have just gotta say that my NAS drive can be a git most imes because while I'm able to access the NAS drive via the PC, it's config/utility menu
is always dead (HTTP 404 ....) Except when I reset the Whole NAS. thought i'd say this just incase its related to my problem

FROM my PC, To access the config/utility menu of the NAS(http://storage), I use the user/passwd of admin/admin which works fine. I have no folder level security permissions on the NAS


PROBLEM - I am unable to access the NAS drive from sonos controller. I cant seem to give it the right username/password

The sonos controller sees the NAS drive and then it asks me for a user/password.

The question is which user/pass does it want ? . I tried admin/admin (all blank) with no joy


2) - Pandora/raphsody
- Relating to Pandora/raphsody. I dont seem to understant what they really are. Does it mean that If I like songs by JayZ, then by connecting to these websites/services, I can listen to all his music. where are all these music streamed from ?

3) what is a music server ? and why all the mention of them all over the place.


4) Gapless playback
Apple has implemented gapless playback for mp3's on the IPOD. This what exactly is the sonos team waiting for.


cheers
css_jay99
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  #2  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 03:51 AM
tommy tommy is offline
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Cool NAS firmware

I had a similar problem. Check what sort of firmware the NAS is using. You can get this by using a brouser and logging on to the home GUI. Click one of the settings and it should show up. It may have SMB or SAMBA sharing protocol but if the drive is using NAS-Basic firmware it most likely won't work. According to tech support, SONOS s/w could not be engineered to cooperate with this firmware type. They can give you a list of known NAS drives that work well with SONOS. Buffalo Link Station is one. It's one of these infernal interoperability issues that you won't get around. Get a NAS that works and be happy!!!!
Tommy.
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  #3  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 05:16 AM
DigitalBoy DigitalBoy is offline
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I think Tommy means what sort of network protocol does it uses rather than than the type of firmware (look for words like SMB, CIFS, Samba).

Sonos will use whatever user/pwd you have set up on the NAS. You need to supply the credentials when you set up the music share via the desktop controller.

The admin/admin login is fine for accessing config utilities, but sometimes it's best to create a specific login for shares (create an account and call it Sonos, with pwd Sonos for example). To test whether your NAS should work, a quick method is to use Windows explorer, and enter in the address bar the \\server\share and see if it asks for a login. If not, then your NAS is not secure and you should fix that issue anyway. If it does ask for a password, try the Sonos/Sonos account you created and see if you can access files. If so, it should be a simple case of typing the full \\server\share in Sonos and entering the user/pwd. Or try the easy method - call Sonos support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by css_jay99
2) - Pandora/raphsody
- Relating to Pandora/raphsody. I dont seem to understant what they really are. Does it mean that If I like songs by JayZ, then by connecting to these websites/services, I can listen to all his music. where are all these music streamed from ?
Use the free trial to find out! Pandora is like custom radio stations. You tell it an artist or track you like and it will start playing tracks that 'sound' similar. Rhapsody is a music service where you subscribe to a massive music library but you don't own the track. However you can listen to pretty much whatever you like. Kind of like going to the public library and taking out a book, rather than limiting yourself to what books you have at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by css_jay99
3) what is a music server ? and why all the mention of them all over the place.
It's one of those terms that is thrown around a lot. Basically anything that serves (ie provides) music. A Sonos ZP is a server as well as a player for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by =css_jay99
4) Gapless playback
Apple has implemented gapless playback for mp3's on the IPOD. This what exactly is the sonos team waiting for.
Sonos does support gapless playback for LAME encoded mp3s (LAME defines a tag for this purpose). Unfortunately, due to the way mp3's are created, there will always be gaps around the music and the mp3 standard does not have any method to address this. There have been various solutions to try and get around the problem (none official however). But it is important to note there are 2 requirements.
1. when the track is encoded (eg ripped), the 'gap' information is stored within the file.
2. when the track is played back, the player is aware of the gap info, and will use this to strip out the gaps and just play the rest.

Because iTunes/iPod controls both steps, they can implement whatever solution they like (there are pros and cons with this approach generally). However Sonos will play tracks ripped/managed by any application, so is not in control of step 1 above, and is therefore only able to follow standards, so that all users are catered for - I for one would walk from Sonos if iTunes was the only support app for example.

So Apple have done their own thing (not unusual...). Similar to iTunes purchased music, or ALAC, this is all well and good if you only ever use Apple equipment for life - they do a very good job of integration and ease of use within the Apple world. Outside of that, support can get sketchy because much of their implementation is proprietary. Sonos doesn't rip the tracks in the first place, so cannot do anything about step 1 in the process.

So, your solution is to use officially supported formats (I don't mean Sonos official, but worldwide standards official). Lossless codecs by nature will play gaplessly. Lossy formats with official methods to support gapless playback are Vorbis (ogg), LAME mp3, and some more obscure formats not supporte by Sonos.

Hope this helps.

db
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  #4  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 05:31 AM
tommy tommy is offline
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Default NAS Drive Compatability

Maybe I read the situation wrong. And perhaps it wasn't the answer css_jay99 needed. But just for the record I do know for a fact (having had a NAS that wasn't compatable) that even though SMB etc is a prerequisite, SONOS will most likely NOT work with NAS-Basic firmware. You will see these kind of errors appearing on the screen during the sharing setup when the controller cannot converse with the drive. It's generally somthing to watch out for when buying a NAS.
Tommy.
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  #5  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 07:13 AM
DigitalBoy DigitalBoy is offline
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Tommy, I think you are confusing firmware with protocols. If a storage device does not support CIFS/SMB it is unlikely that a different firmware version would fix this. It's more likely a design issue.

The communication between a storage device (NAS) and a client (PC or Sonos for example) falls under a set of conventions (protocols) that are standardized across products and manufacturers. It allows communication and data transfer between many types of devices and is not limited to NAS or Sonos. If a device adheres to the protocol, it doesn't matter who makes it, what it is/does etc, they can still communicate.

Firmware on the other hand is the software embedded in a device by the manufacturer. It is customized per device and no two are the same (although there is obviously a lot of shared code base).

The only thing you need to watch out for when buying a NAS device is not firmware, but what network file system protocol it supports (Sonos supports the most common, SMB/CIFS).

db
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  #6  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 09:34 AM
tommy tommy is offline
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Thanks. However I'm aware of the differences. So let me clarify this further: as I pointed out to css_jay99 in my last two replies, SMB/SAMBA etc was a prerequisite/manditory/must have item. Without this protocol on your drive you are going nowhere. For SONOS to file share the NAS must support at least SMB/SAMBA. It's in the SONOS spec.The advice I got from SONOS tech support (unless they are grossly mistaken, which I hope not) is that even if the NAS drive supports SMB/SAMBA file sharing protocol the file sharing process cannot be concluded with a network sharing device like a NAS if it uses NAS-BASIC firmware in it's hardware, amongst perhaps other things as well. It is not engineered to do this, full stop. This is what I said earlier, albeit with slightly less embellishment. Hence the reason why some NAS drives are not compatable. I got similar on-screen requests when I was trying to set up file share. Given that I don't have a screen shot it might not be the same situation as I pointed out to css_jay99. But I thought it was worth checking and saving somone else the heartache.
If you can reason somthing else out of SONOS tech support which contradicts this I want to know. I'm going to the expence of returning a NAS drive for this very reason and could do without the postal hastle.
Tommy.
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  #7  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 10:16 AM
Malcolm - Sonos Malcolm - Sonos is online now
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Tommy is correct - there are a few NAS drives (usually enclosures) from different manufacturers that all use the NASBASIC firmware. Sonos is unable to access these - I believe they do not support user-level security (only share), if I remember correctly. You'll get a username+password error when you try to add the share from Sonos.
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  #8  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 10:20 AM
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Majik Majik is offline
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I hope you don't mind if I try to clarify the issue here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy View Post
Thanks. However I'm aware of the differences. So let me clarify this further: as I pointed out to css_jay99 in my last two replies, SMB/SAMBA etc was a prerequisite/manditory/must have item. Without this protocol on your drive you are going nowhere. For SONOS to file share the NAS must support at least SMB/SAMBA. It's in the SONOS spec.
Correct.


Quote:
The advice I got from SONOS tech support (unless they are grossly mistaken, which I hope not) is that even if the NAS drive supports SMB/SAMBA file sharing protocol the file sharing process cannot be concluded with a network sharing device like a NAS if it uses NAS-BASIC firmware in it's hardware, amongst perhaps other things as well.
You need to be aware of a few things here (which won't help your situation, but might help you understand the situation).

Firstly "NAS-BASIC" is not a well-known industry term. It's specific to a specific NAS product range which has been OEMed a lot and is sold under many different names. I guess Sonos support refer to it that way as it's easier than trying to keep track of all of the OEM variations.

The SMB/CIFS protocol is an evolution of a number of very old protocols. As such it includes some legacy support for these, in particular for the old DOS LANMAN protocol from around 20 years ago. These are sometimes called "share mode" SMB. However, these do not form the core of the SMB/CIFS specification. SMB/CIFS has moved on a long way over the years and includes advanced features that are simply incompatible with these old protocols. The LANMAN stuff is pretty much only there for legacy support.

Many devices, including some very low-end NAS devices, support these LANMAN protocols. Although they advertise this is SMB, it is not. At best it could be said to implement "a bit of SMB". More accurate would be to say it supports IBM LANMAN protocol and NOT SMB/CIFS.

It appears that the device you have is one of these devices which doesn't fully support SMB/CIFS.

Quote:
It is not engineered to do this, full stop. This is what I said earlier, albeit with slightly less embellishment. Hence the reason why some NAS drives are not compatable.
Indeed. Sonos requires SMB/CIFS. It doesn't work with 20 year-old LANMAN protocols.

Quote:
If you can reason somthing else out of SONOS tech support which contradicts this I want to know. I'm going to the expence of returning a NAS drive for this very reason and could do without the postal hastle.
Tommy.
It sounds to me that the NAS is not "fit-for-purpose". If was advertised as supporting SMB/CIFS (with no disclaimers) then I would get my money back from the NAS supplier as this sounds like false advertising to me.

Cheers,

Keith
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  #9  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 12:15 PM
DigitalBoy DigitalBoy is offline
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Thanks Majik, clarification is definitely needed here... The whole deprecation issue is misunderstood. SMB supports share level security, although it is deprecated (ie, has been superseded, is only supported for backwards compatibility). User level security is defined in the spec and is the official standard. So by definition, if a device does not support user level security, it does not support SMB. Period. You can't support to half the spec. It's like saying although 2 tires on your car are worn, but the other 2 are fine, therefore it will pass the fitness test. It has to comply in all areas, or it fails. Even saying it supports a portion of SMB is a stretch (share level security is deprecated remember). Now a device can support share level security and still comply with the spec, as long as it also supports user level security. Confused?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm - Sonos
Tommy is correct - there are a few NAS drives (usually enclosures) from different manufacturers that all use the NASBASIC firmware. Sonos is unable to access these - I believe they do not support user-level security (only share), if I remember correctly. You'll get a username+password error when you try to add the share from Sonos
True, but that is because these enclosures do not conform to the SMB spec. If they followed the spec, they would work. It really is that simple.

I don't think it helps by trying to list every firmware that is supported/not supported. There are too many possibilities to list. An analogy would be listing electricity supply companies that are supported by Sonos (help, my provider isn't on the list...). It's better to specify the requirements eg AC 120/240V, 50Hz-60Hz. In the case of storage devices, what is crucial is the protocol the firmware supports. If it supports CIFS/SMB, then it will work with Sonos. And SMB specifies user level security remember.

Now some clever marketing folks label some devices as SMB, but they *do not* conform to the spec. As Majik noted, they support the decades old share level security. If they are advertised as SMB compliant, you would have a valid legal claim. It is simply untrue.

The SMB spec requires the following. Firstly, the SESSION SETUP is performed. Without that, no TREE CONNECT request will be successful (share level security does not even have SESSION SETUP, so is instantly disqualified...). If the login succeeds (username/password as needed by Sonos, Windows etc), a UID is assigned. Note that this is per user, not per share (ie the UID cannot be used over and over by different users to access the same share). Future TREE CONNECTs from the same client/user can use the same UID however.

So, to access anything, the client (ie user) needs to be authenticated and get a valid UID. Sonos adheres to these standards. Therefore of course, any NAS that adheres to the SMB protocol will work fine with Sonos. Sonos does not know what kind of device it is connecting to. It will simply communicate as per the standards, and if the device complies, it will communicate back.

So yes, some firmwares will not work with Sonos, but this is because they do not comply with the SMB protocol. It's that simple. I'm not saying NASBASIC will work. The opposite - NASBASIC does not comply with the SMB protocol and therefore, will not work with Sonos. So you will never have the problem where you first need to check if it supports SMB. And if it does, perform some secondary check to see what kind of firmware is running. In other words, SMB is not a partial or minimum Sonos requirement, it's an absolute.

This was more technical than I was hoping. For lurkers, it's really very simple. If the storage device supports SMB/CIFS, then it will work with Sonos. A couple of simple, not too technical checks to perform, to avoid the marketing tricksters
  • do you need to install client software (ie on your PC/MAC) as a prerequisite in order to connect to the NAS. If so, be wary. Note that some devices have config apps, but they are not required to connect and access files. You should be able to use any PC and select a share, type in the user/pwd and connect. Nothing else is needed.
  • Can you create user accounts on the device. If not, and there is simply a login for the share, be wary.

db
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  #10  
Old Jul 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Majik Majik is offline
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It's worth noting that these devices will work with Microsoft windows because this also supports the legacy LANMAN protocol.

Clearly these devices were targeted at users who only want to plug them into Windows PCs.

Of course Sonos could update the system to support these legacy protocols (and some have asked for this) but personally I don't see why they should do this to circumvent defects in other manufacturer's products. This would eat in the development time and budget which could be used for more useful features.

And, if someone advertises one of these devices as SMB/CIFS capable and it doesn't work with Sonos, then it is broken and you should legally be entitled for a full refund.

Cheers,

Keith
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