PC or Mac Based Software Zone Player

[jgatie]

Someone really needs to read the thread.

[Rob Greer]

Originally Posted by jgatie

Someone really needs to read the thread.

Since my original post on this thread I've skimmed it and made use of the thread search engine. And yes, I see that people that are saying that it isn't possible to do it because of a timing issue with an Intel chip. But those posts are offering up conjecture--conjecture that hasn't been confirmed (or denied) by Sonos. And as such, I don't put a whole lot of trust in those posts.

I'd be interested in some clarification from Sonos. But people who frequent the forum are saying to not hold my breath. So I won't.

I'm sorry if I upset the innocent passersby (and perhaps few fanboys). It wasn't my intention to start a mild flame fest.

I'll just go along my merry way and weigh my options. I'll have to eventually decide whether or not I really need another ZP90 or if I'm going to stick with iTunes and leave my office out of my whole house audio network.

Please feel free to get back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[rlengthorn]

Surely the ultimate answer to this question is for someone to download Squeezebox Server and try to sync up the software player included with that. If that works then surely there aren't any technical reasons why Sonos aren't doing this, just business ones.

However, let me save you the hassle. I've tried it and the software player can access you music and play it absolutely fine, but there's no way you can get a reliable sync between different zones. I gave it a good week of tickering with the settings, and my network, and I never managed to get a stable sync with a software zone at all.

Now given the huge amount of open software community effort that has gone into Squeezebox, I can only conclude it is not possible to do this with the unreliable timings inside a PC.

So Sonos will continue to not have a software player and if that also suits their business model then good for them.

[jgatie]

Mind you it is conjecture from software and networking professionals, which holds a little more weight than wild speculation from laymen. I myself am a software engineer, and have dealt with PC timing issues when trying to synchronize animations from multiple PC's displaying gambling results to multiple screens. It's impossible, and we had to revert to video split from one PC source in order to maintain the perceived integrity of the results.

As has been suggested in the thread, play a series of tracks on two different computers, and see how long it takes for them to drift out of sync. You'll be surprised at how short a time it takes.

[Topslob]

I would rather turn it around and use the Zoneplayer (or bridge) to play the sounds generated by my games (as the soundblaster does now).
I would like to give Win 7 the possibility to use the system (via IP addressing) as it's default audio hardware, the connection is already there via the router. Now I use the line in for it but this means a cable through the living room.

[poncho]

I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if I repeat something.

As a real-time engineer, my guess is if there is a sync problem, it might be due to the system (Windows or MacOS), rather than the hardware. My customers (avionics, high-speed trains, rockets, etc) do not use Windows or Mac (or even Linux in some cases) because the system can not guarantee predictable response time due to the other system processes that could interrupt at any time. ZonePlayers are dedicated embedded units and so don't have (m)any other processes to contend with. Audio delays of 20ms and less are noticable and Windows doesn't have that kind of reliable response time. Of course, if my customers' applications miss a deadline, unwanted loss of life could occur. In the case of Sonos, they could resync and move on. If it's not too frequent of an occurrence, performance may be acceptable.

On the other hand, I'm befuddled why Sonos hasn't responded to this thread that is 400+ posts long and several years old, or to direct enquiries on this subject. This is obviously a sore point or at least an important issue for a great number of customers. If it really is a hardware (or software) limitation, they could easily put the issue to rest by saying so. That leads me to suspect that it is in fact more of a marketing/sales issue. They probably know how many of their pc/mac controller users also have a ZP in the same room and fear losing that revenue stream.

[buzz]

poncho,

First post! Welcome to the forums.

These are user forums, SONOS does not dialog here. Occasionally, they will furnish technical details that only the developer could know. They have not commented on this issue.

The SONOS sync is quite good, on the order of 2ms or better and it will hold this player to player sync as long as you care to listen. They use this sync capability as a cheap trick to bond two S5's together as a stereo pair. My first thought was that they trim the sync between tracks, but the sync is much better than that. One can play a mono Internet Radio program through this bonded pair with the speakers closely spaced. This is a very sensitive test because any little drift of the relative timing will manifest as a drift in the image. Anyone who expects the system to cough up some sort of sync "event" should be prepared to pay very very close attention for several hours. If one is very perceptive, one might notice a gentle trim of the timing every few hours. But, if you blink, you'll miss it.

I don't think that the motivation for not including a PC player is lost sales driven. There were many arm chair marketers who claimed that SONOS would never release a free iPod/iPhone/iPad or Android controller to compete with their own handheld controller.

The idea of perfect zone sync is a foundation of the SONOS philosophy. Users are thinking that the PC application should be free, but without some hardware help the sync will fail.

An add on hardware card would not be a big deal, but it would cost something and require that the PC be opened, the card inserted, and hope that a driver will install correctly and the sync will not be sabotaged by the operating system anyway. Even though many claim that sync is not necessary, once these users experience what happens when sync is poor, they will demand that the sync be fixed.

In my opinion, the majority of the target audience for SONOS is not keen on opening their PC.

Personally, I don't want my PC playing music. As I am typing, I'm ripping a collection of CD's. I'm using VISTA 64 on an i7 system with plenty of RAM and a dedicated hard drive for the library. The multi-tasking is so poor that the user interface is tied up from time to time by the ripper. I can imagine what would happen if I was also trying to play music on the same PC. I have a ZonePlayer in the room and it couldn't care less about the computer's struggle.

[BarryM]

Originally Posted by buzz

Personally, I don't want my PC playing music. As I am typing, I'm ripping a collection of CD's. I'm using VISTA 64 on an i7 system with plenty of RAM and a dedicated hard drive for the library. The multi-tasking is so poor that the user interface is tied up from time to time by the ripper. I can imagine what would happen if I was also trying to play music on the same PC. I have a ZonePlayer in the room and it couldn't care less about the computer's struggle.

... and the music keeps on chugging while the PC gets it periodic windows-compulsory reboot.

[Majik]

Originally Posted by poncho

I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if I repeat something.

In a way you are, but in the capacity of an expert with an opinion with detailed knowledge of real-time systems. I think your comments are important and useful.

On the other hand, I'm befuddled why Sonos hasn't responded to this thread that is 400+ posts long and several years old, or to direct enquiries on this subject. This is obviously a sore point or at least an important issue for a great number of customers. If it really is a hardware (or software) limitation, they could easily put the issue to rest by saying so.

Buzz has already pointed out these are primarily user forums, but I will reiterate it. Sonos generally don't comment on Product Development issues here.

Quite frankly, if Sonos did post here saying that it wasn't possible or that they weren't ever going to support it, I doubt that would be acceptable to some. I suspect it would cause more fuss than them not commenting. You would be surprised how, ahem, "passionate" some people can get over a pet issue.

That leads me to suspect that it is in fact more of a marketing/sales issue. They probably know how many of their pc/mac controller users also have a ZP in the same room and fear losing that revenue stream.

I think there is some truth in that in reverse: the ONLY reason for this feature request is people don't want to pay Sonos for another Zoneplayer. There have been some dreadful attempts at justifying it in other ways, but it boils down to the fact that the people asking for this are after a cheap (or free) Zoneplayer. I notice that since the S5 came out, the requests for this have been less frequent.

I think a far bigger issue from Sonos's point of view is the cost of support. A software Zoneplayer would be a support nightmare. They already have to deal with the problems of supporting Desktop controller installation across a range of platforms and environments (anti-virus, for instance), and something which needed greater access to the hardware, and need to deliver near real-time support would be impossible to get working reliably on everyone's system. Anyone who has dealt with multi-track audio recording/mixing on a PC will be familiar with the issues here. And, despite the claims to the contrary, sync would be a significant expectation as it's a core Sonos capability: it's what Sonos are known to do well, and others are known to do badly. When people's PC zone didn't sync properly they would be quick to complain regardless of any disclaimers Sonos made.

Sonos are known for great zone to zone sync, and great support. A software zoneplayer could easily destroy both of these reputations.

Cheers,

Keith

[BigN]

As I type this my Computer Room ZP120 is pumping out KYBA Y105 independent of my PC.

I confess that until now I have belonged to the user group who feel a software ZonePlayer for PC or Mac would be a useful product and add value to the overall system.

However after reading the thoughtful and eloquently expressed views of buzz and majik, I think they are correct!

The Sonos reputation is everything. As the system is offered to a wider population -- I was in my local Costco wholesale warehouse yesterday, and was surprised to see S5 Starter Bundles piled high for the first time -- so 100% deliverance on its advertised core features is mandatory.