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  #11  
Old Sep 25th, 2011, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by nyCecilia View Post
As you say, there are ways around the google market, which makes it PURRRFECT!!!
Opinions differ. If I have to hack a device to get it to do what I want, I will, but that's always going to be more effort than not having to hack it. I'd reserve the adjective perfect for a device that arrives from the shop in exactly the state I want it to be in, and has perfect battery life, a great UI, etc.

In short, I've yet to encounter a perfect device. But no matter.

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The problem here is getting the Sonos.apk. Once I have it, it is easy to install. But Sonos is no help--actually a hindrance--to finding the actual .apk. And after I had it, they made it stop working--all in the name of iDog (big slap in the face).
I don't understand the "in the name of iDog" comment. You appear to be suggesting that Sonos maliciously stopped your ACR from working for the benefit of Apple products or users. I can't imagine how that could possibly be true.

Sonos make the app available in the Android Market. Your tablet doesn't have access to this standard marketplace. You could lay the blame for this at several different doors (Sonos, your tablet manufacturer or Google), but you have chosen the one belonging to Sonos.

I understand your position and frustration at Sonos's lack of flexibility, but they have never hosted the APK on their own servers or made it available in other marketplaces. As such, they're not going back on any promise by failing to make an exception for you.

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I do not understand--and never will--why Sonos would go to such lengths to be this way towards their loyal fans. First the iDog first fiasco (when they completely snubbed WinMo which was waaay long before iDog existed), and now cutting off Android tablets--with NO GOOD REASON.
Your outlook is highly coloured by the technology choices you have made.

Sonos aren't going to any lengths to upset you or any other user. What you see as evil intent, is merely an unfortunate side-effect of the fragmentation of the Android Market. For what it's worth, I see that fragmentation as the single most detrimental aspect of the Android ecosystem.

As for developing for Apple's platforms instead of Windows Mobile, decisions like that are based on commercial markets, not chronological conformity. Otherwise, you'd be behind Symbian users in the queue for a native controller.

I'm still waiting for a native Linux controller or at least a Java-based one. I expect to continue to have to wait.

I strongly suggest you research how to install the standard Android Market and then install the Sonos ACR from there. You have chosen a plaform, Android, that affords you the flexibility to work around its implementers' decisions.
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Last edited by ianmacd; Sep 25th, 2011 at 12:05 AM.
  #12  
Old Sep 25th, 2011, 05:19 AM
amun amun is offline
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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I strongly suggest you research how to install the standard Android Market and then install the Sonos ACR from there.
The problem with the Android Market is that it only handles the current version. Therefore, anyone who has a slightly different requirement is stuffed, as Sonos do not make earlier versions available.

In addition, Sonos have no software regression system whatsoever, so every time they issue a new version of software, there is a risk that some users will have problems, potentially major ones. Unless Sonos can fix any problem very quickly, then it's the user who is left out in the cold.

I had a problem recently where the new version of the Android software didn't work on my phone, despite the fact that it was meant to. I was extremely surprised to find that there was no way of rolling back to earlier versions of the software until the problem was resolved. As it happened, I became so frustrated that I rooted the phone and changed the OS, just to get the Sonos controller to work. As an end-user, I shouldn't have to do this.

ISTM that, whilst Sonos support may be very good indeed, the lack of regression is a major problem just waiting to happen. When Sonos release a batch of software with show-stopping problems, the ire of their customers may cause them to rethink things. Particularly if all our systems stop working.

I've now locked my system down to stop any further updates, but you still get caught out eventually. I needed to add the controller software to another Android phone, and then got caught into the 'upgrade everything' approach again. Ideally, I'd have just liked to use the matching apk and not have had to upgrade everything else.

If you like the Sonos way of doing things, that's great - but you need to accept that other people may have different requirements, which Sonos is not addressing at the moment.
  #13  
Old Sep 25th, 2011, 07:52 AM
NoBoB NoBoB is offline
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The problem with the Android Market is that it only handles the current version. Therefore, anyone who has a slightly different requirement is stuffed, as Sonos do not make earlier versions available.
Why would you need anything but the current release?
  #14  
Old Sep 25th, 2011, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by NoBoB View Post
Why would you need anything but the current release?
One example:

Because you install the current version, only to discover that you now need to update the rest of your system in order to use it. (Some minor revisions won't require a full system update.)

There can be good reasons not to update your system to the latest firmware, such as a known problem.

Being able to roll back is a legitimate wish of anyone who exercises caution when upgrading software.
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  #15  
Old Sep 26th, 2011, 12:28 AM
jishi jishi is offline
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What sonos could do is to host another site where they publish software downloads for previous releases, that isn't apparently "supported" by sonos and with a disclaimer about it. Meaning that they would allow people to download it with the risk of being an unsupported configuration.

I think that would be a win-win for everyone.

Because everyone that has a rooted phone can extract the apk from it and publish on the net, it could be a community effort as well, unless Sonos think otherwise. But I hope that they wont mind us distributing the apk outside of the market.
  #16  
Old Sep 26th, 2011, 10:35 AM
amun amun is offline
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Default Software roll-back

Unfortunately, it would require involvement from Sonos make it work.

The Android side could be fairly easily sorted out, but it's the update, interaction and dependancies between the different devices, i.e. players and controllers that would need to be resolved. In particular, the issue of updating a ZP with an earlier version of the software could only be handled under Sonos control, the way things work at the moment.

There may well be hacked versions of the software out there, but I don't really see why a normal user should have to get involved in this.
  #17  
Old Sep 26th, 2011, 12:04 PM
nyCecilia nyCecilia is offline
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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Opinions differ.
Yikes. Let me start by saying I disagree with yours about 1000%. I'll try to hit the major points, but this is exhausting. Was it really worth it for you to put up such a long rebuttal of reasons why I don't deserve easy access to the .apk, I can't fathom why you would do such a thing, seems rather elitist...?

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
If I have to hack a device to get it to do what I want, I will, but that's always going to be more effort than not having to hack it. I'd reserve the adjective perfect for a device that arrives from the shop in exactly the state I want it to be in, and has perfect battery life, a great UI, etc.

In short, I've yet to encounter a perfect device. But no matter.
My device is both an Android tablet and a Kindle at the same time, and also allows interoperability. I have to work a little bit to get it there, but it's there, and no other device on the market does that. You're right, there is no *perfect* device for everyone, but I like this device perfectly for me, as it far surpasses anything else out there in many many ways. I do not want another device, I have too many devices to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I don't understand the "in the name of iDog" comment. You appear to be suggesting that Sonos maliciously stopped your ACR from working for the benefit of Apple products or users. I can't imagine how that could possibly be true.
I stole that from Keith (sorry Keith) and meant it in an over the top dramatic-funny way, but this is essentially what Sonos did, made me update my system and the only thing the update did was benefit Mac users (per the documentation supplied by Sonos about the update), at the same time making me lose my fully functional Android controller. So yeah, it's 100% true, even if I meant it to be funny.

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Sonos make the app available in the Android Market. Your tablet doesn't have access to this standard marketplace. You could lay the blame for this at several different doors (Sonos, your tablet manufacturer or Google), but you have chosen the one belonging to Sonos.
Sonos made an ap. They chose how to make it available--not PUBLICLY, but to a closed portion of the world which is Google Market. I'd say this leaves the blame on Sonos for chosing a CLOSED path instead of a PUBLIC one.

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I understand your position and frustration at Sonos's lack of flexibility, but they have never hosted the APK on their own servers or made it available in other marketplaces.
Then where do you get the Windows and Mac DCRs from? Thin air?

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Your outlook is highly coloured by the technology choices you have made.
Perhaps. But I like the tech I have, otherwise I would not have it.

Are you trying to insinuate that Mac peoples' outlook is in no way coloured by their choices? lololololol

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I'm still waiting for a native Linux controller or at least a Java-based one. I expect to continue to have to wait.
At least they haven't developed one but then placed it somewhere that you're not allowed to touch it. Like a little child lol

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I strongly suggest you research how to install the standard Android Market and then install the Sonos ACR from there. You have chosen a plaform, Android, that affords you the flexibility to work around its implementers' decisions.
Thank you for your suggestion, but a better solution for EVERYONE is that Sonos gives EVERYONE access to the apk, equally. Every time they force me to update and mess up my system, I will push for this. If you don't want to see me do this, then either help me to get it solved or don't read my posts
  #18  
Old Sep 26th, 2011, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by nyCecilia View Post
Was it really worth it for you to put up such a long rebuttal of reasons why I don't deserve easy access to the .apk, I can't fathom why you would do such a thing, seems rather elitist...?
I took the time to respond to you and address the points you raised. Whether that was time well spent would, indeed, appear debatable, because you don't appear to have paid much attention to what I wrote.

Nowhere in my prose do I claim that you don't deserve easy access to the ACR APK. The closest I come is in telling you that you effectively didn't do your homework before purchasing a low-end tablet, because your predicament was entirely foreseeable.

Sonos have not changed the distribution model of the ACR since its launch. Expecting that they would adapt that model to encompass your technology choices was unrealistic to the point of foolhardiness.

Compounding such an absurd expectation with irascible indignation just serves to make you seem petulant and childish.

Or is that further evidence of my elitism?

You wrote:

Quote:
I do not understand--and never will--why Sonos would go to such lengths to be this way towards their loyal fans.
In reality, Sonos haven't gone to any lengths to achieve the status quo against which you now rail, because your complaint is actually directed against what you see as inaction on their part.

Quote:
My device is both an Android tablet and a Kindle at the same time, and also allows interoperability. I have to work a little bit to get it there, but it's there, and no other device on the market does that.
Actually, any Android device can run and install Kindle for Android, which includes tablets with access to the Android Market. Yours is definitely not the only Android tablet that can operate as a Kindle e-reader.

Quote:
this is essentially what Sonos did, made me update my system and the only thing the update did was benefit Mac users
Sonos did not 'make' you update your system. You chose to, in the full knowledge that you wouldn't be able to download a new ACR via its official distribution channel.

As lamentable as that situation is -- and I do sympathise, in spite of what you may think -- you have to accept responsibility for your own actions.

I don't even understand why you applied the update, if you knew that the only benefit was to Apple hardware owners, something you appear not to be.

Quote:
Sonos made an ap. They chose how to make it available--not PUBLICLY, but to a closed portion of the world which is Google Market. I'd say this leaves the blame on Sonos for chosing a CLOSED path instead of a PUBLIC one.
I wouldn't use the word blame, because that carries a clear connotation of fault. They made a valid business decision, one you don't like, but a valid one, nevertheless. Sonos are certainly responsible for that decision, but it's their prerogative to make it.

The company has never suggested that the ACR would be made available via any other channels. If they had, and had later reneged on this suggestion, I would fully support your stance. You would have had a reasonable expectation of being able to get hold of the APK via other means.

The simple fact of the matter, however, is that Sonos have done nothing to deceive you. They haven't acted maliciously in any way. Rather, they have declined to adapt company policy to accommodate a single, disgruntled user after she purchased hardware known to be locked out of the ACR's distribution channel. Hardly the same thing as screwing their loyal fans, is it?

Quote:
Then where do you get the Windows and Mac DCRs from? Thin air?
From Sonos's servers, but that doesn't change in any way the fact that "they have never hosted the APK on their own servers or made it available in other marketplaces."

The ACR is not the DCR. It has a different distribution model. The premises underpinning the distribution of the DCR should not be casually translated into assumptions regarding the ACR. As you have discovered, they are not a guarantee of anything.

Quote:
Are you trying to insinuate that Mac peoples' outlook is in no way coloured by their choices? lololololol
No, I am saying that you are very inwardly focussed on your own issue, to the point of expecting Sonos to adapt its chosen distribution channels in response to one user's hardware purchase. That's delusional.

Everyone is his own best defendant, of course, but most people are able to place their own needs in a slightly broader perspective.

Quote:
At least they haven't developed one but then placed it somewhere that you're not allowed to touch it. Like a little child lol
They've placed it in the Android Market, where it joins more than 200,000 other apps. It's hardly been locked in a bank vault.

I don't understand why you're not as least as upset with Google for denying you access to the Android Market.

Ultimately, though, your problem was foreseeable. You either didn't do your homework prior to purchasing a low-end tablet or you purchased one anyway and hoped, very unrealistically, that Sonos would adapt to meet your individual needs.

Quote:
Every time they force me to update and mess up my system, I will push for this.
Sonos never force you, unless you purchase new hardware that can't be used until the whole system has been updated.

I don't blame you for wanting Sonos to offer you an easy solution to your problem, but I suspect that the way you have presented your argument is unlikely to rally much support within the company.

Quote:
If you don't want to see me do this, then either help me to get it solved or don't read my posts
I offered help by telling you that you can quite easily install Android Market on your device. Once that is installed, you can install the ACR from there in the usual fashion.

That pragmatic route will lead to a solution much more quickly than lambasting Sonos for being mean to you.
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  #19  
Old Sep 26th, 2011, 08:22 PM
nyCecilia nyCecilia is offline
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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Nowhere in my prose do I claim that you don't deserve easy access to the ACR APK. The closest I come is in telling you that you effectively didn't do your homework before purchasing a low-end tablet, because your predicament was entirely foreseeable.
If you don't see your second sentence as completely contradictory to the first, then I can't help you much. Actually, you admit it but then dismiss it?

And since when was Android 2.2 "low end"? Until very recently, it was either "High end" or "standard".

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Actually, any Android device can run and install Kindle for Android, which includes tablets with access to the Android Market. Yours is definitely not the only Android tablet that can operate as a Kindle e-reader.
No, my tablet is UNIQUE as it IS a Kindle, not just Android for Kindle on an LCD screen. I can install Kindle for Android--AND DISPLAY IT IN E-INK (or simply keep it on the LCD side if I so choose). My fault, as I was not clear with the description. If there is another one that can do this (and is available for purchase), point it out to me.

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
I offered help by telling you that you can quite easily install Android Market on your device. Once that is installed, you can install the ACR from there in the usual fashion.
Perhaps likewise you were unclear when you provided the solution as I do not see your instructions on how I can install Android Market on my device, others have tried and deemed it not possible. But I do not know everything and am always willing to learn.

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Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Sonos did not 'make' you update your system. You chose to, in the full knowledge that you wouldn't be able to download a new ACR via its official distribution channel.
Had SONOS made me aware what the update was about PRIOR to the update, perhaps I wouldn't have done it, but it's really hard to make a decision when you have NONE of the facts in front of you and no prompts saying "this will cause you to have to update your Android which is impossible without Google Market." Maybe they're buried somewhere, but it was too late to do anything by the time I realized. BAAAAAD customer, so irresponsible

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmacd View Post
Compounding such an absurd expectation with irascible indignation just serves to make you seem petulant and childish.
You won, okay? I'm childish and petulant, and I don't know how to buy a tablet. Oh, and delusional for wanting what everyone else with a tablet has. 90% of what you've written was you making assumptions of me that just aren't true at all. You are trying to put words in my mouth in the hope that I'll give you more ammunition to call me out as the stupid rube I am, or that others will "see" that I said what you are accusing me of saying when in fact I never said it, all in an effort to discredit poor, childish, petulant, delusional little me. It totally feels like debating an iDog drone. Apple can do no wrong and if you suggest such, there's something wrong with you. You can stop now, you're right, and I'm done.

Do not make any more remarks about ME or my tablet. I will continue to ask for the .apk when needed, and since you insist SONOS will never help me (and you know this as fact so they will never help you either), perhaps some other kind soul will help me out and my post won't be in vain as you state. Do not read any other post I ever make. Go find someone else's fun to ruin.

Last edited by nyCecilia; Sep 26th, 2011 at 09:11 PM.
  #20  
Old Sep 27th, 2011, 01:13 AM
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And since when was Android 2.2 "low end"? Until very recently, it was either "High end" or "standard".
I wasn't talking about the operating system; I was talking about the hardware.

Google doesn't approve some tablets for use with Android Market. That appeared to be the case with your device until you revealed that it's actually a Kindle, not a full Android tablet.

That changes things slightly. Amazon didn't even seek Google's approval, because they had no intention of using the standard Android Market. You probably can't install the standard Android Market on your device, but Google have nothing to do with that fact.

Amazon have specifically excluded the standard Android Market, because they want to drive all app installations through their own marketplace. Commercially, it's easy to understand their thinking.

It creates market fragmentation, however, which is bad for app providers, bad for users like yourself, and therefore ultimately also bad for Android as a platform.

I reiterate, however, that a little research beforehand would have led to the knowledge that this was going to be a problem for you. The Sonos app is just one of thousands that will be similarly affected as companies like Amazon try to build a revenue dam for themselves.

It's unfortunate that you got bitten by this, but Sonos are no more to blame for deciding how to distribute their app than Amazon are for deciding that its users don't get to choose to use the Android Market instead of their own version of it. You can hold both companies equally culpable, or consider them both within their rights to decide for themselves how best to conduct business. What doesn't gel, however, is singling out Sonos as the bad guys in this case.

Quote:
Had SONOS made me aware what the update was about PRIOR to the update, perhaps I wouldn't have done it,
They do publish a list of changes. Often, this list will appear on the controller itself before you confirm that you wish to go ahead with the upgrade.

Quote:
no prompts saying "this will cause you to have to update your Android which is impossible without Google Market."
System updates that change the firmware version number always require a system-wide update, but it's true that this isn't explicitly stated.

Until recently, Google's Android Market was the only one of its kind. Sonos haven't yet taken it upon themselves to warn users who are excluded from it of the consequences for their use of the ACR. That's certainly something they could elect to do in the future, although I personally think the onus here is still on the user to determine prior to making a purchase whether the product under consideration is fit for its intended purpose.

As long as Sonos don't object to other users posting the APK on-line, you shouldn't be too badly affected in practice.
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