Nested iTunes playlists cause reach of limit of 40.000 titles?

[Holger Lehniger]

Hi Sonos-Forum members,

since I bought a Sonos bundle (2x S5 and the Sonos Bridge as a start) I have issues in getting my iTunes playlist imported. The "Imported Playlist" folder is displayed empty.

I researched and checked the 40.000 tracks limitation. In iTunes I added the counters displayed when selecting the playlist or playlist folder at the highest level which do not sum up to more than 25.000 titles.

Still I do not see any playlist after updating the music index.

My current suspicion is that Sonos counts not only the tracks which are residing in playlists (static playlists as well as smart playlists) but also inteprets a playlist folder as playlist.
In case of a nested playlist folder structure that would mean that tracks are counted as often as the playlist folder hiearchy depth. This could easily multiply the amount of titles and therefore reach the limitation of 40.000.

Does anybody uses playlist folders and have discovered similar issues?
Does anybody has any other idea?

[ratty]

Welcome to the forums.

Is the 'iTunes Music Library.xml' file included in the share which you asking Sonos to index?

This FAQ deals with iTunes playlists and may help: https://sonos.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/s...hp?p_faqid=154

[Holger Lehniger]

Hi ratty,

yes, it is included in the share.

I also followed the advice to get rid of any other other "iTunes Music Library.xml" files in the iTunes folder and below as well as in the default music folder of my enviroment.

Any other thoughts?

Does the size of my libary of more than 300GB matters?

Note that I do store EyeTV recordings as well in my iTunes Library as well as any other media.

Also I am an audiobook fan which make up easily about a third of my titles. This is one the reasons I created the playlist folder structure.

I have a folder structure similar to the following:
Level 1: Audiobooks
Level 2: Title, e.g. Harry Potter
Level 3: Part 1, e.g. Sorcerers Stone
Level 4: Chapter 1
Level 5: x1.mp3
Level 5: y1.mp3
Level 5: z1.mp3
Level 4: Chapter 2
Level 5: x2.mp3
Level 5: y3.mp3
Level 5: z3.mp3
etc.etc.
Level 1: Holger Lists
Level 2: Party Playlists
Level 3: Weddings
Level 4: Party Playlist Alternative
Level 5: a1.mp3
Level 5: b1.mp3
Level 5: c1.mp3
Level 4: Party Playlist Pop
Level 5: a2.mp3
Level 5: b2.mp3
Level 5: c2.mp3
Level 4: Party List Walzer
Level 5: a3.mp3
Level 5: b3.mp3
Level 5: c3.mp3
Level 3: Parties
etc.etc
Level 1: Kids Lists
Level 2: Kids Musik
Level 3: Most Listened
Level 4: a4.mp3
Level 4: b4.mp3
Level 3: Vacation Collection
Level 4: a5.mp3
Level 4: b5.mp3
Level 2: Kids Movies
Level 3: Animations
etc.

My suspicion is that Sonos parses the xml file in a manner which will interpret folders as playlists instead of just taking the tracks on the lowest leaf similar to what Apple does:
While you are able in iTunes to see all titles in a playlist folder when selected the playlist folder you can't do that on your iPad or any other iOS device. There only the folder structure is displayed but not the titles which are in the same folder or in all subfolders.

In the example above "Party Playlist Alternative" would display 3 entries while selecting "Weddings" in iTunes would display 9 entries. On any iOS device if you would go to "Weddings" it would just display the three subfolder but not titles and no option to play "all". You would need to click any of the subfolder to see its titles.

I am wondering which logic Sonos uses here and if they can handle nested playlists at all.

Regards,
Holger

[ratty]

Okay, well, I'll own up to the fact that I'm not really an iTunes user (other than for iOS and app updates on my iTouches). Hopefully an iFan will be along soon and offer some more focussed advice.

On an alternative tack, the 300GB size of your library shouldn't be a factor unless the average file size is small and you're hitting the maximum file count or some other library limits. Verify by pointing a browser to http://x.x.x.x:1400/status/tracks_summary where x.x.x.x is the IP of any ZonePlayer. You can obtain the IPs via any controller's About function.

[buzz]

Holger Lehniger,

SONOS does not care how large a given music file might be, only the absolute limit of 65,000 tracks, 40,000 combined iTunes playlist tracks, and, to some extent, the length of the file names matter. If your file names are very long, you may not be able to reach the 65,000 track limit. I keep my own file names short.

The SONOS library index is built strictly from the track tags, the file name does not matter.

An imported playlist counts as one track. Conceptually, you could have 60,000 imported playlists for a 5,000 track library. Or, 5,000 imported playlists for a 60,000 track library. There is no published limit to the number of tracks allowed in an imported playlist, but as a practical matter, adding a 20,000 track playlist to a Queue that already contains 50,000 tracks is not likely to work out.

[Holger Lehniger]

Hi buzz,

thanks for the answer.

I neither have more than 65k tracks in my library nor 40k tracks in my playlist - at least when I sum up the tracks listed in the top node of the playlist hierarchy in iTunes.

You have not really mentioned how Sonos counts the tracks within nested playlists though. If Sonos does create own playlist on every node in the nested playlist hierarchy that adds a lot of tracks to be counted several times.

What is known and stated in other posts is that a track is counted several times if it appears in more than one playlist.

Still, the observed behaviour on my side is that I do see no playlist and neither the German Sonos support nor the American came up with an explanation for that.

Do you have any experience with nested playlist so that you could exclude this as a reason for my issue?

I am wondering anyway that there is not any logfile which could tell me the results and issues during the indexing process.
It seems that Sonos neither shows an error message nor any other information in case issues occur. Or have I missed something or are there any other "hidden" shortcuts to more information?

Thanks for helping me finding my issue in advance.

Regards,
Holger

[buzz]

Holger Lehniger,

Playlists are flat lists, there is no structure. Further, a track is a track as far as the count is concerned. If a track appears in several playlists, (or multiple times in a given playlist) it will be counted multiple times.

At its root, a playlist is simply a list of files. Although it would be messy, playlists could be prepared with a simple text editor. Many of us use 3rd party programs to prepare playlists. These programs can use complex criteria to build the list, but in the end, the list is flat.

[Holger Lehniger]

Hi buzz,

It turns out to my initial question: how does Sonos count in case of nested playlist from iTunes? Or differently stated: how does Sonos handle playlist folders? Are there handled as playlists and therefore counted as a single playlist?

If the later is true then using nested playlist will sum up very quickly to 40k - the deeper the hierarchy the faster.

I am not sure if that has been noted by Sonos already: While you will see all track when you highlight a playlist folder in iTunes even in case they are stored in subfolders you will not have the same behaviour on any iOS device (iPod, iPhone, iPad, etc.): there you will see the playlist folders but you are not able to see all track in the selected folder and its subfolders. Only when you are on the lowest leaf of the hierarchy the tracks are listed and you have the ability to play them all or selectively.

So it looks to me that Apple has implemented this difference in behaviour between iTunes and iOS devices in displaying and interpreting playlist folders while Sonos may have not.

Can you confirm if my suspicion above is true?

Regards,
Holger

[buzz]

Holger Lehniger,

I'm not an iTunes user. It's easy enough to check this out. Make up a small tree and duplicate some tracks at low levels, then add this playlist to an empty SONOS Queue.

[Holger Lehniger]

Hi buzz,

Do you know any way how I can control/track the counter? Is there any command to be issued to the Sonos player or on the controller application?

Regards,
Holger